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Suggested SQ subs?


Best Answer ZippoWallet, 01 May 2018 - 11:13

Sealed boxes can go low, way lower than ported, but you may need cone area and enclosure size (or IB) to be loud too.

Both of the owners of the cars i installed 2 of these subs in liked hiphop & RNB a lot, so it was priority for them to have that extension and both cars deliver that. 

You mustn't forget that it's a 15" sub and the box with it's 55-60L is not considered as small. Also, if you like it loud, you need a fairly big amp to drive these subs, but they are certainly happy to be pushed with a 1kW or so. Having said that, in the Alfa GT i installed one in only had 400W or so available and the car had higher cabin gain and better transfer function than the Golf, which had several times the power, so it depends on the install and the car too. 

 

I can easily change from JL’s 600w mono amp to the 1,000w amp.  It’s not a huge price difference.  I had a brief chat with the installer yesterday about the floor space that a 15” sub would take up over the initially discussed Nordica 12 and it’s not a dramatic increase or loss of space.

 

My initial thoughts on the JL slim sub - and this is underlined by the spiel on JL’s page I read last night  - is that it’s probably a great compromise if space is a limitation.  But I don’t think I’ll end up having to shove the dog onto the back seats and I don’t really need to compromise too much.

 

The DLS and Helix subs are roughly the same price, so the only increase in costs (I guess) will be on extra MDF/ply/whatever and carpeting, so that is likely to be fairly nominal given the overall total costs of the system.

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#1 ZippoWallet

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Posted 05 Apr 2018 - 19:54

Hi,

I arranged and ordered the equipment for 'Phase 1' of my new instal in my Saab 9-5 estate this afternoon.

Alpine iLX-702D

Focal 3-way ES165KX3 Kevlar speakers

S/H Soundstream 1000S amp

 

This will give me a working passive system, using the existing Phoenix Gold active bass tube that I've had for a couple of years (but that will be the system's weakest link, I guess).

I spoke with the installer and his suggestion is that for 'Phase 2' next month we go will the following additions to get the system fully active:

 

Audison Bit One
JL Audio XD600/6v2 (replacing the Soundstream amp)

JL Audio XD600/1v2 to run a new sub

He's recommending the DLS Nordica 12 as the ideal sub.  I am pretty open minded on the subject and would just as easily consider something like a JL Audio W6.  Any other suggestions?

My taste in music is diverse... literally from ABBA to The Sex Pistols, with a fair amount Goa, Psytrance and EDM thrown into the mix.  

 

 



#2 Paul R

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Posted 05 Apr 2018 - 20:46

dls Nordica is a lovely sub

 

also peerless xls10 or Genesis audiophile 10 or 12 well worth a look 



#3 hissi

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Posted 06 Apr 2018 - 19:48

Focal 27/33k / Morel Ultimo sc / Old (round) Kicker Solo-baric / JL Audio 10/12W3-d2 / Soundstream velvet hammer (dd10) / Phase Linear Aliante si / Pioneer ODR / CDT-ES these are all great Subs that can be found used. 



#4 Canadian

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Posted 09 Apr 2018 - 07:38

you can look into focal 33v2 and Rainbow Vanadium 12 (if you can find one that is) ,both are great to say the least.



#5 Scrambled_legs

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Posted 09 Apr 2018 - 16:40

i can vouch for the odr , and the cdt es, and the aliante, ive owned the 1st 2, both very good subs, so was the boston g5 d4 , i hear good things about the ultimo too, the odr i use is great.


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#6 adrimo

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Posted 09 Apr 2018 - 17:59

I can rec jlw3 and Aliante, great subs


I'm a big boy and I like my toys


#7 p.s.sound

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Posted 10 Apr 2018 - 01:02

Hi,

I'd forget your phase 2 option unless you're keen to hassle with a Bit One.

Amps are fine, but technology has moved on and there are better options for the money.

My ultimate suggestion is a HELIX P6DSP, which is a 6ch amp with built in DSP and with a pair of RCA outs for an additional amp, which could be a HELIX G ONE for sub duties. Part it with a HELIX Q series sub 10-15" depending on what can be fitted in your car and you'll never need anything else within your budget. 

Peter


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#8 Twonks

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Posted 10 Apr 2018 - 12:45

Just to echo what Peter says above, I've had a P-Six since they came out and it is used in anger for at least 2 hours every day.

 

Been driving a two way active front end and DVC sub from day one and has never put a foot wrong.

 

Only now (and literally so as it is on order) have I finally gone with a G One for the sub, as I am changing the install and need more power.



#9 adrimo

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Posted 10 Apr 2018 - 13:09

Just to echo what Peter says above, I've had a P-Six since they came out and it is used in anger for at least 2 hours every day.

 

Been driving a two way active front end and DVC sub from day one and has never put a foot wrong.

 

Only now (and literally so as it is on order) have I finally gone with a G One for the sub, as I am changing the install and need more power.

 

 

This is exactly my situation too 

 

p6 is an amazing amp


I'm a big boy and I like my toys


#10 Canadian

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Posted 10 Apr 2018 - 14:59

both the P6 and Mosconi one 60.8 where really my interest too ,happy to see they are performing this wel.

 

 

I wonder how the 60.8 compares as it too can be wired as a 6 channel with 120rms to mids and 60x4 to midrange + tw and leave room for an extra mono off channel 7-8.

 

 

wonder if its got an edge with its class AB tech but then again I own a pdx v9 and have long learned that the D class is no longer what it was before (in a better way :) )



#11 p.s.sound

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Posted 10 Apr 2018 - 21:26

Nothing can beat the Helix's DSP.


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#12 Canadian

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Posted 11 Apr 2018 - 07:55

Nothing can beat the Helix's DSP.

 

 

 

just would like to know what serious/substantial advantages does the Helix dsp have vs lets say a mosconi 6to8? 



#13 Cristian

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Posted 11 Apr 2018 - 09:48

just would like to know what serious/substantial advantages does the Helix dsp have vs lets say a mosconi 6to8? 

Compare the specifications. - My personal view is the resolution of the helix is higher, I find the helix software easier to use and it has more options for tuning. Phase shift in 10 degree steps is vital for widebands for example.



#14 tonny

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Posted 11 Apr 2018 - 19:47

Compare the specifications. - My personal view is the resolution of the helix is higher, I find the helix software easier to use and it has more options for tuning. Phase shift in 10 degree steps is vital for widebands for example.

 

It's just the other way arround ;)

 

The Mosconi has a better resolution as the top off the line is the only car dsp running at 192khz internaly, the helix is just 96khz....The software if just what you are used to use, for me as using the mosconi software each week it's much easier as the Helix software. 

 

The 10degree phase shifts are not on the mosconi and must say I never missed them, get the crossovers right and there is no need for anything like that! 


Nothing can beat the Helix's DSP.

I don't agree :D


A good sounding car is a careful mix of art and science. 

 


#15 nige

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Posted 11 Apr 2018 - 20:07

Genuine question, what benefit does phase adjustment give you over time alignment? My Alpine is a dinosaur compared to these modern processors so no such luxuries!


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#16 Mannparry

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Posted 11 Apr 2018 - 21:03

Whilst I’m not even going to attempt to answer that, is phase adjustment not different to ta in the fact that ta delays the speaker? So whilst effecting phase it effects the overall placement of stage etc. Would having an additional phase adjustment not then bring the speakers back into phase without shifting the image? 


Edited by Mannparry, 11 Apr 2018 - 21:04.

Dyn's on class A

#17 tonny

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Posted 12 Apr 2018 - 18:22

Time delay is a frequentie dependent phase rotation, phase adjustments is for each frequentie the same... if you have a loft and a right speaker in time you don't want to change the phase between them as that will fuck up you imaging again and you will try to correct it with time delay again. 

For crossovers you also don't need it if you take the right slopes and right timing between mid and tweeter for example your phase will be the same so no need for any phase adjustments in my opinion at least! 


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#18 Cristian

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Posted 13 Apr 2018 - 09:27

Genuine question, what benefit does phase adjustment give you over time alignment? My Alpine is a dinosaur compared to these modern processors so no such luxuries!

 

Nige as you know this is very fine tune territory/discussion that 90% of users of DSPs will never get round to doing.

 

However the key benefit I think is for owners that are using a wide-band, you may find that you can get the timing and phase cock on except for one bastard frequency due to differences in aiming between speakers (E.g. Left/Right phasing can be corrected with TA but might be at the expense of cocking up a single frequency). OR (E.g. Mid and tweeter not being on the same baffle angle, which you can correct with TA at the expense of being out of phase at a single frequency). The ship bell or Asian bell on the old CD was especially tough as it had very noticeable dual fundamental frequencies in the high frequencies that users without wide-bands could compensate for using TA alone of the mid range and tweeter. The reason its so tough for the highs being that the frequency pathlengths concerned for users with older DSPs, you could be shifting phase anything in between 0-360 degrees with a single click of TA. - That single click might be necessary to shift the relative phase angle lower down across a much broader (and noticeable) range of frequencies (or left/right). E.g. In my car I could TA the midbass to the middle, a 10-20 degree shift would make it much more focused.

 

When judging cars, the wideband cars are lovely to listen to, but more often than not, they suffer on the technical staging because of trying to get every frequency in time and phase over so many octaves is really tough compared to someone with two speakers (midrange and tweeter). With a limited DSP, unless you are physically moving the speaker angle a million times to find the right spot between left right and mid/tw (and every combination for all four, if its a simple 2 way setup), they are at a huge disadvantage. With the phase adjustment you can shift the relative phase angle for all frequencies (same as tilting the speaker) whilst still having TA purely for timing distance/ arrival time/ not axis response. Basically an extra button is cool.

 

Tonny may have a different view or opinion which I of course respect, this is my personal take from experience/experimenting trying to tune my car and listening to many others.



#19 Cristian

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Posted 13 Apr 2018 - 09:34

It's just the other way arround ;)

 

The Mosconi has a better resolution as the top off the line is the only car dsp running at 192khz internaly, the helix is just 96khz....The software if just what you are used to use, for me as using the mosconi software each week it's much easier as the Helix software. 

 

The 10degree phase shifts are not on the mosconi and must say I never missed them, get the crossovers right and there is no need for anything like that! 


I don't agree :D

The last Mosconi I used I had to add a line of another 12db slope with the same crossover point below it to make 24db. If the software has improved since then, I stand corrected, but it was a bloody pain in the ass last time I used one.

 

96khz is 24bit or twice the rate of CD quality. Do you have much music at 192khz to take advantage of having to use much more CPU power, which in order to meet that processing demand can't have a phase control slider?


Edited by Cristian, 13 Apr 2018 - 09:35.


#20 tonny

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Posted 13 Apr 2018 - 20:10

The last Mosconi I used I had to add a line of another 12db slope with the same crossover point below it to make 24db. If the software has improved since then, I stand corrected, but it was a bloody pain in the ass last time I used one.

 

96khz is 24bit or twice the rate of CD quality. Do you have much music at 192khz to take advantage of having to use much more CPU power, which in order to meet that processing demand can't have a phase control slider?

 

 

It's ideal if you can put different filters on top off each other with different frequenties and so on to tune your your filter to shape the sound you like ;)

That's much better then just a 24db filter as you do have much more options which you need in the car! 


Nige as you know this is very fine tune territory/discussion that 90% of users of DSPs will never get round to doing.

 

However the key benefit I think is for owners that are using a wide-band, you may find that you can get the timing and phase cock on except for one bastard frequency due to differences in aiming between speakers (E.g. Left/Right phasing can be corrected with TA but might be at the expense of cocking up a single frequency). OR (E.g. Mid and tweeter not being on the same baffle angle, which you can correct with TA at the expense of being out of phase at a single frequency). The ship bell or Asian bell on the old CD was especially tough as it had very noticeable dual fundamental frequencies in the high frequencies that users without wide-bands could compensate for using TA alone of the mid range and tweeter. The reason its so tough for the highs being that the frequency pathlengths concerned for users with older DSPs, you could be shifting phase anything in between 0-360 degrees with a single click of TA. - That single click might be necessary to shift the relative phase angle lower down across a much broader (and noticeable) range of frequencies (or left/right). E.g. In my car I could TA the midbass to the middle, a 10-20 degree shift would make it much more focused.

 

When judging cars, the wideband cars are lovely to listen to, but more often than not, they suffer on the technical staging because of trying to get every frequency in time and phase over so many octaves is really tough compared to someone with two speakers (midrange and tweeter). With a limited DSP, unless you are physically moving the speaker angle a million times to find the right spot between left right and mid/tw (and every combination for all four, if its a simple 2 way setup), they are at a huge disadvantage. With the phase adjustment you can shift the relative phase angle for all frequencies (same as tilting the speaker) whilst still having TA purely for timing distance/ arrival time/ not axis response. Basically an extra button is cool.

 

Tonny may have a different view or opinion which I of course respect, this is my personal take from experience/experimenting trying to tune my car and listening to many others.

 

As far as I know you can only change the phase off the complete driver and not on a single frequentie? 

 

You can also use real allpass filters on the mosconi dsp's did that all off last year ;)

And for the old disc the position off the sound off the higher imaging tracks has very little to do with phase as the frequentie is that high its all about levels... And as a judge you should know that! 


A good sounding car is a careful mix of art and science.